Curse

Symbol · May 28, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Lol. Still bitching about this? Hey symbol if you think the strats are bad then how is Gnome still winning his battles? You must suck badly if he can use his bad strats and still win and you can't.

Because you don't need those strats to win, duh. That's the whole point.

I just played a couple of rounds as Luxon. The difference between that and playing on the Kurzick side is palpable. I didn't have to do anything other than rush and attack Kurzick players. The extent of our "strategy" was one guy calling up the other turtle when we were at the green gate. It was pathetic.

Oh yeah-we won. Handily.

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When the amount of good Kurzick players = good Lux players, Kurzicks still have an advantage because all you need to do is cause a stalemate and hold out. Ask yourself what you are doing wrong.

Lol. "All you need to do is cause a stalemate". No shit, sherlock. That's like saying, "all you have to do is win, and about as insightful". Any more pearls of wisdom you'd like to share?

anonymous · May 28, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Because you don't need those strats to win, duh. That's the whole point

And so what if you dont need a strategy? There is nothing wrong with not needing to plan with random people a minute before the match starts.

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I didn't have to do anything other than rush and attack Kurzick players.

You just stated the luxon strategy. If it works, why do anything else?

SwordOfAVirgin · May 28, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

The Luxon NPCS are better than the Kurzik NPCS so therefore it's imbalanced. End of discussion.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 28, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordOfAVirgin

The Luxon NPCS are better than the Kurzik NPCS so therefore it's imbalanced. End of discussion.

That's idiotic. NPCs arent the only factor in the battle. The terrain and objectives and gameplay are all important factors. Simplifying it down to just which NPCs are better is moronic.

If everything was equal (ie each side had a base that the other had to invade and both sides had to get resources to build to 100%) then you'd have a point. But since the objectives and territory is different on each side, your argument is just plain ridiculous.

Ensign · May 28, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

From playing this mission a good amount, I would say that Luxons have a significant advantage at low to non-existant levels of coordination, but that advantage deteriorates when people start to know what they're doing...

But it seems to come back in force when players start to get good on either side. You don't see many good Luxon teams that really press their NPC advantage, but when you do see one (I.E., a squad that keeps heals on the turtle and has minion support for all the carnage created by the turtle) you end up with a situation that's hardly tenable.

The map has two issues, really. The first is that the Kurzick side realistically needs to split, while the Luxon side does not. At low skill levels the Kurzicks don't split effectively or try to accomplish mission goals well, and really can't win, while Luxons never suffer this problem. The other is that the map, to remain balanced, relies upon the Luxons having an overpowering offense that would always win if time went to infinity, but it merely has to be stalled enough for the Kurzicks to win before they break completely. The way that tends to break is how the speed of the game changes with the skill of the players. When everyone is bad, the game slows to a crawl, but when both sides are good things tend to accelerate and resolve themselves quickly.

This of course is problematic here because it means the map can only really be balanced for a certain skill level, above which the Luxons have an advantage (speeding up of gameplay conquers faster with their advantage and overruns) while below it the Kurzicks have an advantage (game slows to a crawl, progress isn't made very fast, timer expires). This is complicated by the previous low-skill scenario where Kurzicks cannot win if they are incompetent because they will not split effectively.

The net result of all this is that, on the whole, the better team wins. If the teams are roughly equivilent in skill, the Luxons will win if both teams are awful or both teams are good, while the Kurzicks will win if both teams are mediocre. In other words it's not something that can really be balanced around competitive play, but it's not a super serious format anyway - so as long as the sides are splitting wins in half I don't think there's any sort of problem.

Peace,
-CxE

Symbol · May 28, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

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And so what if you dont need a strategy? There is nothing wrong with not needing to plan with random people a minute before the match starts.

That would be fine it worked for both sides, but it doesn't.

Quote:

I didn't have to do anything other than rush and attack Kurzick players.
You just stated the luxon strategy. If it works, why do anything else?

Why does the Luxon "strategy" require less effort than the Kurzick one?

SwordOfAVirgin · May 28, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

That's idiotic. NPCs arent the only factor in the battle. The terrain and objectives and gameplay are all important factors. Simplifying it down to just which NPCs are better is moronic.

If everything was equal (ie each side had a base that the other had to invade and both sides had to get resources to build to 100%) then you'd have a point. But since the objectives and territory is different on each side, your argument is just plain ridiculous.

I didn't think I needed to mention the objectives and territory since they are clearly in Luxon favor as well.

Luxon forces respawn automatically, Kurziks have to venture into Luxon territory and carry amber back to respawn their forces. This essentially ties up a PC for maybe 30+ seconds of running time, where the player is doing nothing in combat. It is almost a given that Luxons will control the mines, and when they do they actually get to spawn there making it very difficult to take back. If Kurzik somehow manage to kill the very highly defended Luxon commanders or mines, it is a lot easier for luxon to get them back. Advantage here in terms of NPC's, NPC respawn times, and PC respawn points are all in favor of Luxons.

Since Luxon NPCs can overpower kurzik, the luxons can simply ignore one gate and focus on the other. Kurzik always have to divide their forces. Kurziks also have to dedicate manpower and time to gathering amber and taking back mines. All of which take away from base defense. Often times I see the entire luxon team plus a turtle and warriors fighting maybe 4 kurziks at a gate. This is normal, because Kurziks always have to have 1-2 guys at the other gate to fight off the other turtle and npc's, and 1-2 other guys constantly trying to retake a mine and run amber. Kurziks have multiple things they need to do to survive. Gathering amber, taking mines, and killing commanders all take time and manpower away from basic defense. Luxons just have to spawn and attack to be effective.

Kurziks can hide behind their walls and defend with bonders, but Luxon can hide behind their turtles and do the same thing. It's more effective for luxon because turtles are way tougher than anything kurzik have.

Luxon can use MM to tremendous advantage due to the large numbers of dead bodies. Kurzik MMs see their minions get devestated every 10 seconds due to massive long range huge area of effect turtle cannons.

Luxon have terrain advantage in the courtyards. Kurzik have these nice high spots overlooking the courtyards, which convienently don't have range over the far side of the courtyard. Luxon can easily manipulate the enviroment, moving from side to side of the courtyard to avoid threats, or staying behid the turtles. Making the terrain more of a hinderance to kurziks, as we have to spend time traveling back and forth between the inner gate and the ridge to get range. Not to mention going through the ONE-WAY way teleporter, which permanantly positions you outside the fort.All a luxon has to do is move a half inch to the right or left or back and it forces a kurzik to run for 10 seconds just trying to get range. Also, luxon turtles have massive range and can destroy our inner wall before we can even get range to attack them from the ledge.

Please tell me what advantage kurzik have? We have walls we can hide behind, but so what? Luxon can hide behind their turtles. And the turtles can tank far better than the walls can.

Stationary defense? So what we can summon spirits and place traps at the gates? big deal. Spirits die quickly to turtles and traps have very little effect on a turtle/monk team. Actually spirits and traps are far more effective for luxon at the mines and on the teleport pads.

Bottom line is Kurzik have nothing that Luxon don't have at least equal to.

And finally to add insult to injury the Luxons can gain faction faster in the battlegrounds, since a short game gives the Luxons more points, and in order to get the max faction the Kurziks have to play a long game. Hence it doesn't even really matter if you win or lose with kurzik, you just get a set number of points/minute played, where-as the luxons can get a lot more points if it ends early.

Ira Blinks · May 28, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

I played on Luxon side all saturday (not 24 hours ofcourse, but enough to complete befriending quest). Luxons have clear advantage. It takes very skilled players on Kurzik side to effectively slow down Luxon forces enough so that amber runners can catch up.

I am not going to focus on ridicilous situations like Kurzik side having 4 monks (which happened a few times) where Luxons stand no chance. I can only say that with equal skill and profession distribution Luxons will win no matter what. Yes, I've seen serious players who can solo commanders/turtle on Kurzik side, but same goes for gatekeepers/Gunther. I have to say that gatekeepers are pretty crappy monks and can be easily assasinated. Also they often wonder off from their position behind green gate, which makes it even easier to kill them, while command points are not that important and can be easily taken back.
Turtles are even easier. I can succesfully protect turtle with Mo secondary. Blind attacker/interrupter. Add some damage. Throw healing breeze on turtle.

On top of that Luxons have time advantage since they can push their victory early and get reward for the half time spent in mission, while Kurzik have to fight to the end to get their 600 faction (not that I care about faction, but it seems like alot of people do).

Count to Potato · May 28, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Just be glad for the Jade Quarry

generik · May 28, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count to Potato

Just be glad for the Jade Quarry

Which to date probably has 0.0 battles held there...

Xellos · May 29, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

The thing that really bugs me seriously, is that Juggernauts in the whole game are never ever given any real advantage over the turtles. Don't give me that flip over turtle crap, have you even seen the firepower turtles present? Three of those things one shot almost anything during Gyala Hatchery and nearly kill Juggernauts in one volley. Juggernauts need some kind of mission where they are seen as the killers, and turtle as wussies.

Course, this has really nothing to do with the imbalances and such, but hey! The turtle has a CANNON. At least give the juggernaut an accent and the x-men one liner.

Faer · May 29, 2006, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Apparently apart from turtle defence where the turtle gains extra armor, it also has an ability where melee units take 100 damage and are teleported away!

Didn't notice that in the past, maybe it was introduced in the recent patch. Seriously this is ridiculous. Anet might as well just change Fort Aspenwood so people can just go there and click the Enter Mission button for an instant 600 faction.

I only read part of this thread... Didn't feel the need to sift through piles of trash talk and murderous tones.

I'd just like to point out that the Turtles are easy as hell to kill, even when they are being backed up by a Monk...

Not for self-promotion or anything, but... Check this out. I never designed it for Turtle Slaying but hell, it works like a charm.

Turtles are the easiest thing on the battlefield to kill... Even for us "noob" Assassins.

Yuo Can Do It! · May 29, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

The only problem I see with this mission is that Kurzicks do not know what to do. All they have to do is defend, but I keep seeing people rush right out into the battle field, oblivious to common sense.

The reason the Luxon NPCs are stronger is because they are invading a fort, and there are many times more npcs than them.

I have seen good Kurzick teams win quite a few times, so at least some of them know what to do.

Oh and quit whining about the Juggernauts and the Turtles, a Juggernaut does not even have to be right next to a turtle to flip it over. Also, if the Kurzicks would actually try to take down the turtles, they would have a much easier time defending the base. But do I see that? No, they're out fighting humans and getting the gates up while the turtles are still there.

I say it's just a lack of coordination on the kurzick part, even though the luxons seem to have an advantage.

aron searle · May 29, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avaith Faer

I only read part of this thread... Didn't feel the need to sift through piles of trash talk and murderous tones.

I'd just like to point out that the Turtles are easy as hell to kill, even when they are being backed up by a Monk...

Not for self-promotion or anything, but... Check this out. I never designed it for Turtle Slaying but hell, it works like a charm.

Turtles are the easiest thing on the battlefield to kill... Even for us "noob" Assassins.

soj or healing hands
healing seed
essance bond (thanks for the energy)
ect

there wasnt that hard to stop you

Ira Blinks · May 29, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

coordination? lol let me tell you how it usually goes:
1) Im set for running amber and clearing mines. Nobody on the team even bothers to bring anti-mm stuff. We die.
2) Im set for killing. Nobody runs amber. We die.
3) Im set for healing/anti-mm. Nobody does any damage. We die.

I tried it all. Coordination is a luxury which is required for Kurzik to win.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 29, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

So in the meantime, I've gathered 66k in Kurzick faction in 4 days of semi serious playing. It took me a while to get all the faction but not any harder to get than Luxon faction since faction in general is tedious to gain.

The only complaint I have about the Kurzick side is the constant rash of AFK leeching bots. Almost every time that I lost while on the Kurzick side was due to having an AFKer on our team. And you know what? Most of my team didnt even notice until I pointed it out. And I think some of you complaining about the "imbalance" havent even noticed the AFKers.

Faer · Jun 01, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

soj or healing hands
healing seed
essance bond (thanks for the energy)
ect

there wasnt that hard to stop you

When that happens, then I'll start worrying about it. Hasn't happened yet. Therefore, I'm not worried about it.

Sure, it's easy enough to list out a few skills on a forum and say "pwned" but how many monks out there are actually using that build to save the turtles from a rogue Assassin (or any character for that matter)? Maybe a few.

Maybe.

Helll is for Heroes · Jun 01, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

you get greater defence as you push further on to prevent the entire map be owned by luxons/kurzicks.

Draygo Korvan · Jun 01, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

On top of that Luxons have time advantage since they can push their victory early and get reward for the half time spent in mission, while Kurzik have to fight to the end to get their 600 faction (not that I care about faction, but it seems like alot of people do).

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.

The fact that the good luxon players win faster, creates a balance issue all by itself. I created an algorithm to demonstrate this amoung equal player pools, you can view that here: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/User:Dr...enwood_Balance along with its results. Ends up giving the Luxon a 3:2 advantage before they even enter the mission if you go along with the assumption that if the kurzicks fail to stop the first attack they lose, and win if they succeed (which is generally true).

Though I will tell you guys one thing, diversion is a bit overpowered. Slap that skill on a turtle and disable his turtle shell and he is as weak as a kitten, you also can prevent him from using his seige turtle attack for a minute at a time.

[FnG] Lazz · Jun 01, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

But it seems to come back in force when players start to get good on either side. You don't see many good Luxon teams that really press their NPC advantage, but when you do see one (I.E., a squad that keeps heals on the turtle and has minion support for all the carnage created by the turtle) you end up with a situation that's hardly tenable.

Yes this is true. A few days ago when I was playing on the Kurzicks side, one of the turtles had both a healer player obviously healing it, and a necro, making minions out of all the dead NPC's and humans. This is quite a tough group to kill as the monk usually (assuming they are at least decent) stay far enough back to avoid getting damaged, yet close enough to heal the turtle.

The turtle does the 'seige turtle attack', killing off any NPC's usually in about 2 hits which allows the necro to make minions, which in turn, work as a distraction as whilst NPC's and some players focus on minions, the real threat which is the turtle, stays well back whilst doing its attacks.

Of course the only thing Kurzicks have (as far as 'monster/boss' goes) to take on the turtles is a tree, which is more or less a giant modified praying mantis. Its incredibly slow, not just at moving but its attacks, and I think it would be better if Kurzicks had 2 of them.

Even if you manage to break their 'barrier' and get to the turtle, you've still got the carrior defense not only throwing you away, but doing a lot of damage, and added to that there are several NPC's which can do some serious damage (With one of my characters, either Monk or Assasin, all the hits were doing 70-80 damage).

And whilst this is all happening of course, double it since theres 2 turtles aswell as usually at least 1 monk and 1 MM. And after all that, in order for Kurzicks to prevail, they need to go into Luxon territory, get past the turtles, enemy players, NPC's etc, get the amber, then come back through it all again.

So yes, I do think Luxons have the advantage. On the plus side though, Amber is worth more than Jadeite. Having said that, I usually seem to have higher odds (several times higher) of winning on the luxons side, yet amber is only worth about twice as much as Jadeite.